I've had people not really come up with legitimate defenses of yaoi outside of "the rape in it is a fantasy. fantasies aren't supposed to reflect reality." I think this is bullshit. Rape fantasies and the romanticization of domestic abuse is outright harmful to vulnerable viewers (and most yaoi fangirls are underaged girls).
If you want an example of series with vile messages that are known to corrupt the minds of the fans, look up Das Sporking's series on "Twihard Idiocy", particularly the one on Wardo's backstory. From the same community, check out the Final Thoughts on Fifty Shades of Grey, since MANY women have jumped and defended the books as a genuinely good, healthy romance, even though "it's just fantasy".
Saying "it's just fiction!" is not a legitimate defense of a work. It's known beyond a doubt that works of fiction have an influence on people's mind.
PS: People often talk about how gay porn is unrealistic is well. Well... I wholeheartedly disagree. Maybe I've just been lucky enough to only be exposed to the good gay porn, but I've only seen rape porn ONCE, and even then the bottom wasn't screaming and begging for it to stop like 80% of all Ukes. As for straight porn, I don't have as much knowledge on that, but the rape porn tends to get slammed by feminists and male feminist allies, and with good reason. Why is yaoi (and for that matter, hentai) exempt? And even if you say "well regular porn does it too" doesn't make it okay. EL James churns out poorly written, rape apologist trash and makes lots of money off of it. So does that make it okay for other authors/"authors" to do the same thing?
I don't know if I should be happy that Hataraku Maou-sama got good sales or even has a good possibility of getting a Season 2, now that I realized via pixiv and the rest of the webz that the only reason why this show sold is not because it was good(which I personally think it is), but because fujoshi want to see/make more of Maou/Ashiya buttsex. And the worst part is that the producers/PR staff seem to be too happy to pandertothem. I mean, really, people? The show is good enough as it is and you don't need to forcibly shoehorn fujoshi-pandering BS elements (and yuri-fan pandering BS...I'm looking at you forcibly shoehorned Emi/Chiho elements in the anime) just to make money.
And shippers, don't talk to me about Maou/Ashiya being "totally OMG canon". If I were to ship those two, I might as well support parental incest. Because that's how their relationship in the show/story is playing out, not the "waifu" crap you keep spouting.
So this Halloween I watched this really awesome vampire anime called "Shiki," and I loved it. So I did a bit more poking around, looking up pictures and fanposts about some of my favorite characters...
...and I found yaoi. Or at least, slash. Between the show's most visible villain and his mortal enemies.
I honestly don't know if it's the slash (since I do like at least one slash pairing inspired by this story) so much as that I'm just angry that this particular villain was shipped with anyone at all (though the painfully-cute and cliche nature of most of the slashy pics I found certainly didn't help). Because in canon, he's a ruthless, heartless master manipulator who shows genuine affection for only one character in the entire story (and considering she looks like a little girl, that ship can't work for a whole other set of reasons). So as far as I'm concerned, shipping him with just about anyone is OOC to begin with, but there's absolutely no justification for slashing him with his mortal enemies. If you want to slash someone, go watch actual BL; I'm sure there's a vampire-heavy BL story out there somewhere.
For crying out loud--you would think that "Shiki" would be intelligent and obscure enough not to attract such vapid fans with such trite interpretations for the characters, but I guess not!
This is going to be a bit rambling so I apologize in advance for the length.
So awhile back I came across a story on Fictionpress entitled "Mills College Anime Club," which stars a bunch of LGBTQ people who like anime. Sounds basic enough, except that the characters fill pretty much every single homophobic stereotype you could imagine--as if the author was using a checklist!
But one reason why I mention it is because one of the main characters is a (straight) Yaoi fangirl. And she acts like the worst kind of Yaoi fangirl imaginable--she constantly fantasizes about Yaoi, constantly talks about how much she wants to spend every penny of her career on Yaoi, and basically thinks of gay men (whether real or imaginary) as nothing but objects that exist for her voyeuristic pleasure. She also once makes a transsexual voice actor cry because he provides the voice of the star in a Yaoi anime but doesn't like Yaoi and thinks it's the work of the devil or something (guess who HE'S supposed to be a caricature of!).
But as I've been thinking about her and the other Yaoi fangirls that occasionally pass through the story it occurs to me that they seem to like Yaoi and hate Yuri because Yuri is demeaning to women in a way that Yaoi is not demeaning to gay men (or so they say--of course this isn't actually true). Someone who reviewed the story also wrote a really excellent scene with her in which she theorizes that the reason girls like this Yaoi fangirl latch so rabidly onto Yaoi is because they think all the good men are gay and that straight men will hurt them.
And now I've started to wonder if institutionalized sexism is part of what makes Yaoi so popular, no matter how degrading the story is; and why there are women who get so worked up about it. Think about it:
Your average American woman is living in a culture where she's nominally the equal of the men around her, but she still has to contend with a very real rape culture, and possibly other prejudices, on a daily basis. Throughout her life she gets inundated with messages saying that 1) men, or at least straight men, see her and all women as simply objects to lust after, and lesbians in sexual relationships as things to masturbate to; and that 2) if she isn't careful around (straight) men she will get raped (sometimes she may be presented with or work out the corollary that gay men won't rape her and therefore are innocent and harmless). She may, if she internalizes these messages enough, then begin to think of all men as being horrible monsters and slaves to their lusts who want to hurt her, and may, when she watches Yaoi, see perfectly fit to think of this particular subset of men (though ironically, gay men have been subjected to prejudice as well) as objects to masturbate to; after all, the men in her life think of HER as just an object to masturbate to or rape, right?
I'm not trying to say that all or even most Yaoi fangirls think like this, but some of the really hardcore ones might. Possibly--this is really a thought experiment more than anything else.
I don't know why, but lately LJ comunities are quite down... However, I think this issue will bring up some issues to talk about.
You see: I guess everybody around here is aware about the last "blockbuster" movie "The Advengers"... it has reunited in an only film a fine selection of heros (and only one villan) from all the previus Marvel Comics movies, except for Spiderman and the Transformers saga. No matter if you are a Marvel's or just comic's fan or not, the fact is the movie is a hot threat in many memes, online comunities and such. ---I cannot blame it, because the movie is a real blockbuster and has tons of good scenes, good characters, etc.
But as you can guess, shitty side-effects happen. On one side, we have the fanboys, who are complaining about this or that movie interpretation/scene/whatever, or just enjoying the show, as much as many generic fans do. But on the other side, we have the yaoi-slash fangirls army.
We cannot deny it: the movie's cast is almost all male (except for two female characters) and all the characters are cool in some way. So, as a result, we have dozens and dozens of yaoi fangirls drooling over this/that character (put here the combination that annoys you the most), along the characters are good looking or something.
As you can guess, I don't like it at all. I don't like to see every f***cking fic I see about Loki and his macho-man bro Thor is "incest" (Thorki I guess it's called); And I don't like to see every fic I see about Iron-man involves some nasty side scenes with Bruce Banner, or Loki, or the Capy, or a bunch of metal...
Danm! Cannot it portrait some nice-non yaoi story, instead?
But the problem goes further than this. People tend to mix up "characters" with "actors", which is just WRONG. As much you like Mr. Robert Jr's funny entries, he is NOT Tony Stark-IronMan... and as much you like Mr. Hiddleston' Shakespirian portrait of Loki... he's NOT the god of Mischief! And I say so because there are dozens of fanfics and fanarts about those REAL persons getting togheter into such affairs.
All those (Cool) characters are portrayed by real persons, people with real lifes, problems, friends, (foes), loves, fears, problems, joys, families, etc... So why do those bunch of fangirls use their identities for turning them into tools of their rabbid (sexual) fantasies?
Geez! It's very nasty already to see very Thor's fanart I find around happens to be a slash portrait with his lil bro... and it's evey nastier to see the characters involves are the actors!
Dang... Sometimes I feel really-really relieved to be an annonymous person, not a public character.
(PS. Sorry for the grammar and speling mistakes. English isn't my native tongue)
My written English might be terrible and hard to understand. (I am not a native English speaker).But I believe that many people in this community share the same unpleasant even painful experience as I had for many years. And so happy eventually find here to express my feeling.
At first, even now, I am definitely not someone has homophobia. And I am not a fan for normal romance, too. As a girl good at science, most of my time was invested in math problem solving and research. And I was that kind of person that "too rational and has a heart of stone". I always focus on logical flaw and feel hard to move by any movies or fictions. Even I was slow in reaction, still I realize I was a member of "BG-minority" that surrounded by tons of "rotten girls". The most commonly question I had from my classmates, best friends and clubs is " Why you are not "rotten"?/ Why you can't understand how fancy the slash& yaoi is?"
Fine. At the very beginning, my reply is "OMG, again, I was out of fashion( if you are someone like science and most friends are guys...". Then I picked up some recommended slash/ yaoi fanfictions to read. Moment later, I feel they are so rediculous and unrealistic....and so wired. I can't understand these female writers want to break a straight guy from his beloved girl friend, then fabricate a "romance" about the guy and his best friend. They attached stigma on his girlfriend and try to reasonwhy" he should be invoved with his friend, not her". I feel so confused and can't be a member of "rotten girls"
I travel to many cities and countries. But nowhere I can escape from these rotten girls. They are the people treate any female characters in fictions , cartoon harshly. They can ignore the original story and attach stigma on her. Sometimes I felt the only " sin" of these female in fiction & cartoon, is that they are female, not male. Being a male turns to be a best excuse in many cases.
Actually, I was so hesitated to write a paper about "stigma and intersexualism " about slash fanfictions. However, I can't tolerate any more when I heard they criticize Nymphadora Tonks...They almost invade everywhere, from novels to TV dramas, cartoons and even Glove puppetry.
I make the decision to write this paper. The cases are mainly focus on slash fanfictions of HP and the Lord of Ring, for they are widely appreciated by people all over the world. However, I have two math modeling to do and know nothing about how to find the fangirls discuss fortum of HP/ The Lord of Ring. I need to locate their harsh criticism and comments on female characters ( as known, most are quite harsh and unreasonable) , especially from the well known slash fanfictions about HP. If someone saw it before and willing to post a link or copy the comment for me, that's great.
Those comment or stigma on female characters would be the basic material for me to start my research. Thanks!
Found out that the yaoi stuff was dropped down to a small group, though they are still there, not as big though, more of the fans of Yaoi seem to be dropping off or maturing a bit. I guess some of the girls are actually maturing, that's a surprise, at least the rapid ones i know of are actually coming to the realization that it isn't okay anymore to jump up and down yelling Yaoi.
The main yaoi vendor made a mistake and brought in some stuff that even I thought was detestable, sorry, I do cosplay a Nazi, Rip van Winkle from Hellsing, but I don't go around parading that stuff around, I only dress in her suit and tie, not with the symbols proudly displayed. So I think that the vendor is in big trouble with the Anime fans at the moment.
I'm so surprised that the Yaoi Press's owner has said that she understands why I am not big into yaoi, but still support her as a business. Aside from that, I was impressed...the yaoi fandom in my area is slowing down, how about in yours?
Some fanbrat posted this flame thru my DevArt PM. I can't help but just be appalled at how utterly immature these people are.
You´re such a hypocrite. You have Tintin porn art, I guess for you that´s respectful for Hergé´s work...of course it isn´t slash so for you it´s all right. And you´re complain people said it´s a matter of homophobia? Can you blame them? You cannot claim that slash is a disrespect for Hergé´s work and at the same time drawing porn. Straight or no, this is still porn. Please get a life. Sometimes I feel you´re a closeted Tintin slash lover. You just publish on Tintin groups just to complain about that! You even are able to see it where it doesn´t exist! You´re worse than real slash fans! That people love slash, let it be! Just ignore! I know people who doesn´t agree on it but respect! But you can´t even accept other people preferences and on top of that you´re an hypocrite! Tintin having sex with girls isn´t canonical as well, you know!! Neither a single kiss!So if you´re using that sad excuse about Tintin slash not being canonical please use that excuse for all kind of drawings as well! Hergé had forbidden other works on Tintin after his death, you know? Otherwise I will see you as an homophobic person!
So I'm an evil homophobic hypocrite because I don't approve of pairings of canon characters that don't make utter sense in canon (and turning them into depraved horndogs at that), and am simply voicing my displeasure of it....in a gen comm page and in my private space? Not to mention that the yaoi stuff that I encountered were far, far worse than what she alleges my naughty-themed fanarts to be. The fact that they can get so sanctimonious like this and horny-fappin-over-non-canon-slash-art at the same time is appalling.
So I was going over one of the stories I'd put on Weepingcock awhile back, when I came across this line in the author's note:
"I do not own Pokemon, if I did the most homosexual character in the series wouldn't be the only one canonly hetero. That's right Ruby I'm talking about you."
So... a little bit of background for those of you not in the know: Ruby is a young boy based on the male PC from the third-generation Pokemon games. He's a Coordinator (who trains pokemon for beauty contests and the like) and generally plays opposite number to his partner, the tomboyish Sapphire (guess who she's based on?) for whom he's expressed romantic interest.
Basically, this person's putting it out there that ALL feminine men and boys are automatically gay (or if they're not, they should be)! WTF?!
(Just FYI, a friend sent me that link of one of my artworks uploaded on a porn site. It isn't so much as it was featured on a porn site than the comments below it that caught my attention. Yep, yet another exhibit of "Het Is Ew" behavior---they hate me since I make het ships and don't approve of slash ships of the franchise; not because of yaoi is ew, but because it simply will. not. work. in canon.)
Hey guys, fairly certain I've asked this here before, but since I haven't been around for a while and there are some new folks around, I thought I'd ask it again.
Anyone have suggestions for male/male romance manga (or non-romance manga that just happens to prominently feature consensual gay male relationships) that yaoi-haters like the rest of us can actually read, and possibly even enjoy? I'm sure everyone here knows the normal complaints, but basically some realistic, possibly serious-but-not-angsty, egalitarian and completely devoid of rape, etc etc. And no guys who look like girls! (Not that I mind fanservice, but it's not what I'm looking for in BL with a story.) Can be by-girls-for-girls BL or by-guys-for-guys bara, I'm not picky on that front. No fanfiction, please.
I want to read good romance manga, and I don't care about the gender, but while I've read a lot of tasteful, good yuri that I've enjoyed (in other words, by-girls-for-girls stuff that isn't porny), most yaoi I've seen reads a lot like awful and tasteless shoujo or josei smut manga, and I'd like to see a few exceptions.
We find all our MM video games heroes walking together through the park after an exhausting day.
Suddenly, a strange group of girls bumps into them...
Zero: Hey! Watch it!
Girl#1: Oh I'm so sorry I *pauses*
It's you! It's really you!
X: What are you talking about?
Girl#1: You're the rockman video games series kawaii guys, aren't you?
X: Yeah, why?
Girl#2: Why aren't you and Zero-kun holding hands, like you always do?
Girl#3: ...and why aren't Rock-chan and Forte-chan holding their hands either?
Zero: Whooooaa, you must have a screw loose.
X and I are just friends!
(Puts arm Over X's shoulder)
Girl#4: quick, take a picture of that!
Zero: Hey! What do you think you're doing?
Girl#4: You're right.
I can't take a yaoi picture of you two with only one arm
put your other arm around him and give him a deep French kiss, with tongues and all.
Then, could you do an anal sex scene with him next, please?
It would look sooooo kakoii!
Zero: You disgust me!
What kind of freaks Fujoshi (lit. "Rotten girl") girls would enjoy seeing such disgusting pictures from us?
All the robots guys at the same time: Yeah!
X: Rock, Forte, Zero, Blues & I would never do that!
All fan girls: oh Yeah...? Then what are these?
(The girls Shows yaoi/yuri fics, arts and doujinshis of the boys doing all kind of ANTI-NATURAL nasty things between them (beside yaoi or yuri &%$# fuking things), incest scenes, bestiality, necrophilia, and even more worst things….).
Zero and X scream in terror, Rock faints and Forte and Blues laugh their Heads off, even though they were also offended by such horrible images.
WHAT KIND OF &%$# TWISTED YAOI/yuri ChauvinismFREAKS ARE YOU!
Fan girls: Fujoshi and fudanshi (lit. "Rotten man") fans, yai!
After gaining composure, the guys pull out arms canons and Zero takes out his saber beam.
All guys: GO AWAY!
Yaoi Fan girls run away, screaming their lungs out.
Blues: You must admit, those weaklings not only were twisted and dumb brainless otakus but also amusing.
Zero: Oh shut up!
You're lucky you aren't an even number.
We find our heroes walking through the park WITHOUT yaoi fan girls pestering
Them ever again.
Fujoshi (lit. "rotten girl") is a pejorative Japanese term for female fans of manga and novels that feature sexual relationships between men. Fujoshi enjoy imagining what it would be like if male characters from manga, video game and anime, and occasionally real-life male performers as well, have sex or kiss/touch each other. The name was coined by mass media, but was reclaimed by yaoi fans. Fans self-deprecatingly refer to their way of thinking, which perceives homosexual relationships between male characters in stories that do not include homosexual themes, as being "rotten". "Fujoshi" carries a connotation of being a "fallen woman".
According to a 2005 issue of Eureka, in recent times fujoshi can refer to female otaku in general. As fujoshi is the best-known term, it is often used by the Japanese media and by people outside of the otaku subculture to refer to female otaku as a group, regardless of whether they are fans of this or not. This usage may be considered offensive by female otaku who are not fans of this at all.
Men who, like fujoshi, enjoy imagining relationships between characters in fictional works when that relationship is not part of the author's intent may be called fudanshi ("rotten man") or fukei ("rotten older brother"), both of which are puns of similar construction to fujoshi.
Oh slash fans. They'll do anything just to bring down the non-slashfans with them in case something like this comes up.
(I actually gave my two cents worth in there; my username is lalunafelis.)
EDIT:And I've been recently blasted by other comms and boards left and right because of my stance against Tintin yaoi, labeling me as a close-minded immature homophobe, you know, the stuff that yaoi fangirls hurl at those who disagree with them. Apparently, opinions and viewpoints are acceptable to them.....only if they approve of it.
Forgive me for giving my life story but let me start from the beginning. First getting into anime i truly never gave a damn about pairings ( i am a het fan though) just the plot, action and characters. Being a christian i shouldn't really surpport gay couples ( but who am i to stop love) but when i stumbled upon some pokemon ( yes my first time seeing yaoi was unfortunely my childhood obession luckly for me it was not porn) i was like "wait but ash likes misty and gary has his personal fangirl group why the hell are they kissing like that." That unfortunately marked the dawn of yaoi for me. Soon i eventually found out what this thing was called and did my best to avoid it but how you when you look for a male character and constantly see him paired up with every other male in the show (really fangirls) and God forbid you type another male name with his name just because you innocently wanted to see some awesome fanart. Heck one day i decided to look Courage the Cowardly Dog and was shocked to see some of the fanart. HE IS A DOG PEOPLE HECK YOU JUST DOING THAT TELLS ME THAT YOU DO NOT I REPEAT YOU DO NOT RESPECT COURAGE, THE SHOW ,THE WRITERS AND EVERY COURAGE FAN'S CHILDHOOD. My butthurt aside you guys are one of the very reasons why i cannot enjoy my fandoms.
1.All female characters are turned into useless bitches or killed off (I am no feminazi or anything but it pisses me off that you rather a boy than your own kind, really sad girls eg Xion gets labeled as a Marysue but if she was a boy everyone would Love her.)
2.rape = love ( get raped and tell me in full detail how you swooned for the man who raped you.)
3. guys are occ for your sick fetishes.
4.mpreg LORD GOD MPREG.
5.your shallowness " Y ISHIPZ RIKU N SORA CAUZ THEY SMEXY BEAZTZ!11111."God you r "internet lanuage" is so horrid that i couldn't even properly mimic it.
6.All people who disagree with you are homophones( heck actual gays and I am talking about men hate yaoi and your like "OMFG U CANT BEZ GAY" uh yes they can.)
7. Your murdering of canon (poor writers.)
8.Your bashing(we are all preferences deal with it.)
9.The fact that you watch the show just because the guys are"HAWT" and dont even give a damn about the plot.
10. The fact that no fandom is safe.( oh look lucky star a show with girls i will just genderbend them pair them up and leave the only guy ungenderbended and pair him up too.)
11.Your logic eg Sasuke tried to kill Sakura sasusaku will never happen Sasuke hates Sakura Sasuke tried to kill Naruto many times Sasuke loves Naruto ... wait what.
I could go on and on and on... Course i know of you sane ones out there (THANK YOU GOD) and we het fans do some of the stuff you do i.e 1 (to an extent) 2 3 7 9... i am not telling to stop your hobby but draw some lines we het fan will do the same ( curse you rule 34) dont shove yaoi down our throats and be bashing het because without it you would not exist genius ( that goes for you het is ew fans.) I am not trying to start a war kay and please keep away from children by properly labelling it and please stick to canon yaoi cause other yaoi is just perversion in my eyes. Sorry for errors peace.
So I was reading this (actually quite good, if NSFW) Pokemon fanfic, when the author started commenting about shit and said that the fandom needs more gay. Um... seriously? Seriously?! Obviously she hasn't noticed the glut of yaoi that completely pervades all corners of the fandom.
Now, to be fair, she does specifically state she wants good-quality gay stuff, which is understandable, but on the other hand, is all good-quality stuff not created equal?
She also states that one popular gay pairing is totally canon (even though Pokemon has never been about the romance to begin with and none of the fan-preferred pairings, gay or straight, are anything more than conjecture) and expects to get flames from people who'd rather ship the characters in the fic with a woman.... Irony much?
...I now can see the complaints about a yaoi-fangirl dominated fandom in action, like het/gen fic writers being ignored, arguments of characters falling in love with the opposite sex "OOC" (cue headdesk from me), etc.
I should be happy that there are Tintin fans just like me. And that there's a Spielberg movie based on the property that will be released soon. (I don't care what the "lol uncanny valley" people think, I love what I'm seeing!) But am I the only one who's disheartened by the fact that I won't elicit an enthusiastic response from the fandom outside the mention of Captain Haddock/Tintin? It doesn't help that there's also some gay activist that rambled about Tintin's supposed homosexuality once. I'd LOVE to see how the author Herge's gonna take this in That Place In The Sky, given that he's taken great pains to avoid ALL hints of romance.
tl;dr Tintin and his cohorts are asexual. Deal with it, shippers.
So, I normally like to write stories, sometimes writers block sets in and I ask people for motivation, inspiration, or suggestions. I write fanfiction too, GOOD fanfiction, none of that "OMG HE TOTALLY FELL IN LOVE WITH ME---I MEAN YLLAS(Writers name backwards)." Mary sue crap that newbies write.(At least not anymore, thank god.) It's not normally anything you would search for, like Avatar TLAB, or HP. Even Full Metal Alchemist every now and then. I'm not very "up to beat" with the anime scene. Mostly cause most of it has gone to crap. But yeah, back to the stories I write. So I get this email from...let's call her D, D asks me to write a fanfiction, so I say "Okay, whom with whom?" "(StraightanimeguyX)x(StraightanimeguyW)" I explain to her I don't do slash or yaoi. Her reply? "WHY THE FUCK NOT? ARE YOU A FUCKING HOMOPHOBIC OR A LESBIAN OR SOME FUCKING NITWIT! ALL FANFICTION WRITERS WRITE SLASH! I'M GOING TO GET MY FRIENDS TO FLAME YOUR STORIES NOW CAUSE YOU'RE SUCH A BITCH!" Thankfully I never got any flames. But this really made me think. Does any other fanfic writer get this sort of stuff done to them too? I hate yaoi to a T, mostly because of some very bad experiences with it when I was younger. But I'm not a homophobe; my sister is a LESBIAN! Seriously...also I'm not a lesbian, I was bi-curious once, back when I thought all men were jerks, learned women are too, never going back down that road so I'm straight edge. Hell, even one of my bestest friends growing up is gay! But back to a more serious note, not all fanfic writers write slash or yaoi. I once wrote a homosexual love story, but that was because I knew I could write it BETTER than most slash writers or yaoi fangirls. My pairing met in college, they were BOTH buff men, even covered some realistic issues too, like they were in a restraunt, and one gave the other a promise ring, and some douchebag went "OMG YOU FLAMING HOMOSEXUALS GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE WE'RE TRYING TO EAT!" And one of the guys replied. "Oh I'm sorry! We're trying to do the same thing too! So if you could not yell at us while we eat that would be real nice!" I didn't write the sex, mostly cause that's just too squicky for me.
Should point out I'm also a furry....yeah. Shocker eh? Female, straight, furry. Don't write yaoi. The hell is wrong with me? Nothing, I just know my limits and preferences.